One to Ponder

[gwendolyngrace]

Okay, so here's something to think about.

The other night, Joel and I were talking about living alone and the high (IMO) density of people who talk to themselves when they live alone or spend a lot of time alone. In the Gweniverse, I'm never completely alone, though, because character-muses constantly provide the opposing voice in my internal dialogue. Like Tom Hanks' character in Cast Away anthropomorphizes "Wilson," I think we as humans need someone to bounce off of, even when that someone is a figment of imagination.

So we're talking about this, and I was saying that it's often characters from books, or TV or movies, and I mentioned how driving is a huge opportunity for this process, and how often these days Will Laurence or Temeraire are my co-pilots (Temeraire because he's a very fun conversationalist and Laurence because he occupies that lovely "straight man" capacity), and that when Granby's in the back seat it's even worse.

And Joel, who's just read His Majesty's Dragon, said he didn't know who Granby was - because, as he put it, he'd "never heard the word pronounced." I said that he'd read the book - he should recognize the name.

And then he said that he never internalizes the pronunciation of proper nouns and names while he's reading things.

I find that fascinating and impossible. I asked about maps: Does he "hear" the pronunciation of streets and such when reading the map? No. He "sees" them as glyphs and then looks for the glyph that matches the picture in his memory.

Bzuh?

So... what we want to know is how anomalous that is, or whether I'm the one who's odd in always figuring out how to say people and place-names when I'm reading. I've known for a long, long time that I prefer to "hear" the words spoken in my head as I read - it's one of the reasons I'm a slow reader - but is that "normal" or is it more normal to take in the word without an attempt to "speak" it and then simply recognize it on repetition? Is it a difference in thought? Teaching? Or actual brain process?

Discuss.

Comments

[pandarus.livejournal.com]

They're both perfectly normal; with English, that whole sound-it-out-in-your-head is a useful strategy for decoding unfamiliar words, and a lot of learners do well with phonics; however, with languages like Japanese you have to learn each shape individually, rather than considering it as a string of sounds - a significant number of kids being taught English don't do well with phonics because they're doing this learn-the-shape-of-the-word-and-attach-that-to-a-sound-in-the-air thing, rather than breaking it down into a string of sounds. That's just how their brains happen to work - and if they were learning a different kind of language, it wouldn't register as an issue.

It's not a difference in teaching - it's a difference in learning style. (Are you familiar with Multiple Intelligence Theory? That goes into more detail - but even without breaking learning styles down into a wide range, it's standard practice for teachers these days to actively cater to VAK - that's to say, incorporating Visual, Auditory and Kinaesthetic elements into every lesson, to cater to these three main ways of learning.)

I generally "hear" words in my head too - except when it's a particularly tricky proper name in an unfamiliar language, at which point I can resort to mentally thinking "that word there, with the Ns and Xs and not enough vowels" and not knowing how to say it.

[gwendolyngrace.livejournal.com]

Right, that makes perfect sense for Japanese and Chinese and other languages where the glyph is everything.

And yes, when a word is particularly long and complex, like F says below, Mayan or Incan or Congalese with the clicking sound characters... sometimes I simplify it to be able to "read" it without tripping myself. But yeah, there are very few instances where I give up and just recognize the word for its characters - and even then, when reading, I will almost invariably substitute "Whatsis" or "Whoozy" or "Thingummy" for the unpronounceable word.

[flourish.livejournal.com]

I don't always figure out the proper way to say them, but I also wouldn't be thrown by a name like 'Granby.' It'd have to be weirder. Mayan names? I know them when I see them, but when they're said? No clue.

[gwendolyngrace.livejournal.com]

Well, for Mayan names I usually simplify them. Occasionally I have to give up and I'll recognize the spelling but substitute "Whatsis" for the trouble word.

And I'm not saying I always figure out the proper pronunciation, but a pronunciation of some kind? Yep. That much I do.

[embroiderama]

Oh yeah, I hear words in my head, hard to imagine not doing it that way. Now, I often pick an entirely WRONG pronunciation for proper names (or for unfamiliar words when I was a kid), and then it's almost impossible to mentally switch to the correct pronunciation. And I guess it does make me somewhat of a slow reader, at least when I read for pleasure. I *could* fly through just scanning things but that's not the way I enjoy reading a story.

[gwendolyngrace.livejournal.com]

Sure - I had an English teacher who told us that for a hugely long time he had no idea how to pronounce "facetious" (Fah-SEE-Shus) because to him it was "FA-set-us" - so yeah, particularly with proper names it's not always perfectly correct, but it's some kind of pronunciation, some aural interpretation of the symbols in that particular spelling.

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

And then he said that he never internalizes the pronunciation of proper nouns and names while he's reading things.

He's not an aural processor (probably visual or possibly kinesthetic). You, on the other hand, are almost certainly an aural processor.

It's simply a matter of what sense is dominate. People vary, with most being visual or aural to one degree or another -- primary kinesthetics are not quite as common, but still normal. It's probably intrinsic to each individual brain, though I'm sure teaching can push one to expand a non-dominant sense.

[psychic-serpent.livejournal.com]

I was going to say--I hear everything from a book in my head and really NEED to know how to say things. When I find out I'm wrong (or the author seems to have it wrong, LOL) it's somewhat annoying to me. I'm definitely an aural processor, although I think I do a lot of visual processing, too. (Hazard, I suppose, of being both a visual artist and a singer/composer/musician).

I can't imagine someone like Chris actually not knowing who Granby might be if we both read the book; I've had instances when I've pronounced something differently than Chris when we've read the same thing (he made a real hash from "Scrimgeour") but once I've said it he says something like, "Oh, is that how it's pronounced?" He doesn't actually have to know while he's reading or just decides on something without caring whether it's the way others would say it, but he knew who I was talking about when I said the name.

This kind of reminds me of people with synthesia expecting everyone else to think of the number eight as "blue" or Tuesday as "orange"; they do it automatically, it's a natural response, and the idea that everyone else doesn't perceive the world that way is very strange to them. Those with synthesia are rarer than aural processors but it sounds like Joel might be an anti-aural processor (most people do it at least a little), so no wonder you were baffled by this, Gwen, since I would expect you to be a really strong aural processor.

[gwendolyngrace.livejournal.com]

I do visually process things now and then - I have extremely good recall skills, and for example in my art appreciation classes in school I could memorize the looks of various artists MUCH more quickly than my classmates (and to this day can tell a Rothko or a Miro or a Vasarely by a very quick visual). I also recognize faces extremely well and can frequently remember the context in which I know a person, say a 2nd- or 3rd-tier actor in a show, I can recognize them from a different movie or television program and half the time tell you who they played.

I also write my lines longhand when I'm memorizing them, but I also listen to them and gain a HUGE amount of sense memory once blocking is added.

But yeah, I'm with you on the reading thing. And I certainly wouldn't have expected someone to not even recognize a major character on *hearing* the name, even if he hadn't bothered to figure out how to pronounce it beforehand.

[gwendolyngrace.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I prefer to think he's a freak. :)

Nah, I get that some people are more visual than others, but what threw me was not supplying a pronunciation for someone's NAME, and more to the point, not even being able to register that name when heard. I mean... Iskierka - I can almost understand that one. But Granby? pretty simple.

(Then again I remember A doing sometime similar a couple years ago because I mentioned Darfour and she gets her news primarily from websites, so had never heard it pronounced and didn't realize that's how it was pronounced. It's still weird!)

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

*I* am primarily kinesthetic and secondarily visual and thus don't bother figuring out how novel-to-me names are pronounced if I'm merely reading them. 'Granby' wouldn't throw me, but reading a biography of Genghis Khan, I didn't spend energy on figuring out how to say most of the names -- I knew the shape of them, which is the point for reading about them.

Frankly, I think people who are primarily aural are 'weird', but I've never called my friends who are so 'freaks'.

[lapin-agile.livejournal.com]

I hear ALL. THE. WORDS.

[gwendolyngrace.livejournal.com]

YES. ALL THE WORDS. And if you're like me you also pronounce them properly for their language of origin....

(I thought of you at the awards ceremony! One of the plays with a couple nominations was Picasso at the Lapin Agile.)

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I get hung up on my own internal pronunciation so much that I won't recognize a name if someone says it just a little bit off. Typical work conversation:

"One of your clients is here. Elizabeth Dackrey."
"...I don't recognize that name."
"You just saw her yesterday!"
"I'm quite sure I saw no one named Elizabeth Dackrey yesterday."
"Hang on...wait. Liz--Lizabeth--"
"Lisbeth DeCree! Oh, yeah, her."

But I can't extrapolate the name from the mispronounced name, even when they're really close and I just saw the person the day before. Part of it is because I see the name in my head, too, and when the spellings don't match that just confuses the issue further.

[gwendolyngrace.livejournal.com]

Okay, that's a weird one.

Hm.

Nope, sorry: I think you're just a freak. :)

[lapin-agile.livejournal.com]

Okay. On further thought, I should add that I, too, am a slow, high-comprehension reader. But. And? I am terrible at names when I'm introduced to people: I do very, very, very much better after I've seen the name written down, so for me both things are needed in order to do either very well.

I hear just fine, btw. But it's very easy for me to tune out information that's coming to me just as sound--baseball on radio, for instance. We've long gotten our news via NPR, but I probably hear/retain half the stories, especially if there's anything else I'm doing or reading at the same time. I've taken to listening to Slate gabfest podcasts, in part to try to improve my attention to input that's just auditory.

A final piece of the puzzle from my own experience. I'm a person who can tune everything else out while reading, so much so that my spouse can find it difficult to break through if I'm reading.

I'm not sure all those pieces work in the same direction, but it seems to me that they are all parts of the puzzle.

[gwendolyngrace.livejournal.com]

And see, I can't tune out sound. Commercials? Hear'em. Jingles? Forget it. Even when I'm reading, unless I really get engrossed, if there's sound going, I will generally hear it and process it along with whatever I'm reading.

I can do names and remember people just fine, including remembering the faces of actors and recognize them from other characters they've played (I'll frequently figure out things like, "Oh! I know that guy because he was the arresting cop in blah-blah" when he was in one scene in that movie five years ago, and in a TV show after that and now is the sidekick in the big-budget blockbuster. Yeah).

But I absolutely also do things like write out lines longhand when I'm trying to memorize things, in addition to repetition and listening over and over, so yes, sometimes kinesthestic learning is important. But I still speak it in my head even as I'm writing, which is why it works for me.

[grouchyoldcoot.livejournal.com]

I spoke to erink today, and she seems to have the same pattern as me- and the same trouble with people's names. And I think I have an example for the name Granby. I see 6 letters, starts with G, ends with y, and for the rest it almost doesn't matter what order they're in.

Oh, and do you remember talking about equations? About how you read them left-to-right and I absorb them as a gestalt? I think a chessboard is a good analogy- an equation is like a chessboard. You don't read it; you notice familiar patterns.

[gwendolyngrace.livejournal.com]

Yeah, and see, it would take me MUCH longer to internalize that it's a 6-letter word than it does to just assign it the value "GRAN-bee" and move on.

Hm. I think some equations are like that, but overall no, I still "hear" the aural value of each symbol as it arrives in the equation. After I do that, then I can take it apart or rearrange it as necessary to solve for whatever variable is in question.

But see how cool this is? Cognitive theory in my journal!

[erinrua.livejournal.com]

Hi thar! Peeking in from long lurk-dom ...

I think I tend to at least invent some sound in my head that represents pronunciation. ;) But if, such as a Slavic or invented sci-fi name that simply has too many consonants for me to suss out, I'll simply register the name as a sort of glyph or "shaped letters" in my mind. I see that set of symbols and instead of a sound, I just recognize the letters as the name.

But the other 99% of the time, I "hear" the name, even if I must make up a pronunciation. I retain far more from reading than listening. If I can read AND listen, that's the best.

Numbers, on the other hand, I tend to visualize as shapes ... ;-)

[gwendolyngrace.livejournal.com]

Hai there, stranger!

Yeah, there are some exceptions for me, too. If a name is way too long or complicated I'll simplify it or substitute something easier, like, "thingamajig" instead of whatever it's supposed to be, but it's still a pronunciation, even if it's nothing to do with the real word.

Even numbers, I see the shape but I "hear" the pronunciation of the integer or symbol. Joel and I talked about equations because he deals with higher maths all the time and sees each equation as a whole unit unto itself. I can't do that, either. I have to read it left-to-right and then I can start to take it apart.

[nearlyvalkyrie.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah - big VAK example.
I had a similar event in my first Mythology class in High School. I'd been a HUGE fan of it since getting d'Aulaire's Greek Mythology at about 7 or 8, and Bullfinch's at 9. So at 10th grade I was thrilled to have a chance at a Mythology section in English class. The first few days left my head reeling, because I already knew all these stories, but the names didn't match. Well, some like Zeus and Apollo and Diana are easy enough, but Hepheastus threw me for a total loop. Then I realized I'd never had anybody to talk to about these characters. I could recognize it instantly in print, but not out loud. Serious head games for me.

In more recent years, designing adult learning, I found out about Visual-Auditory-Kinesthetic. All my surveys put me at very high Visual, some kinesthetic, and barely register auditory. That always struck me as odd, given how much music is a part of my life, until I realized even music gets processed into kinesthetic blocks in my head. If I'm talking to someone about thirds vs fourths, I feel it more in my fingers than I hear it in my head. Playing with chords, I feel it in the spacing - does this note need to be closer or further away from the other? If I'm trying to learn lyrics or a script, I have a hard time picking it up just listening to it (or I'll listen to it a million times in a row - effective, but slow). I need to write or type it by hand (kinesthetic) and look at the words, verses, structure etc (visual).

Brain processing is fun ;-)



Hmmmm. I wonder if there's a higher incidence of absolute pitch in auditory learners, and relative pitch in kinesthetic learners....

[gwendolyngrace.livejournal.com]

Yes, I had a Middle English professor who told us how he was like 14 years old before he realized that the word "facetious" was pronounced "fa-SEE-shus" - he's always said, "FA-set-us" in his head. And some of those names can be tricky - but honestly, I had a Greek Mythology guide (still do) with a pronunciation guide at the back. Once I figured out the principles of pronunciation for *those* names, I applied them to similar names. And in the same way, if I know how to pronounce vowels and consonants for a particular language, I apply that guideline to the names of that language's origin when I'm reading. So yeah, it's not particularly hard to figure out in most cases. There are exceptions when I'll just simplify or even substitute if absolutely necessary - things like Mayan names or names that include things I find unpronounceable.

It doesn't surprise me at all that I'm high auditory, though I also have very good visual memory and also I use kinesthetic training all the time. I will write my lines out longhand too when I'm memorizing - many, many, many times while I'm memorizing. But I combine it with reading them and hearing them, and especially with saying them at rehearsal. Getting blocking really cements them for me, too. And I usually only need to be given blocking once to remember it. (It kinda drives me crazy when people are given their blocking and then can't repeat it as given.)

As far as pitch, I have pretty excellent relative pitch, though not by any means perfect, and I don't have perfect absolute pitch, just really good memory for absolute pitch. I certainly can't tell you the frequency of any particular pitch, I'm not mathematical in that way. But I've never been a good musician in terms of playing instruments, I'm a singer, so again, it's all in the ear.

[psychic-serpent.livejournal.com]

This also reminds me of the first time I realized that there were people who said "Hermy-own" instead of Her-MY-oh-nee. ;) (And the shock of those people that it wasn't Hermy-own was kind of amusing.) But I still don't understand people who repeatedly type "Sirus" for Harry's godfather. I read that as "Cyrus" and that AIN'T the dog-star. ;)

[gwendolyngrace.livejournal.com]

I'm so with you there! There were SO MANY pronunciation threads on HPFGU and it always drove me CRAZY. Like, how could anyone not understand that it's Her-MY-oh-nee? (or In-fin-EYE-tus, ahem? It's In-FIN-ih-tus, hello.)

I'm not necessarily 100% right all the time, but jeepers, folks, use some common sense. And if a name is a real mythological one or something, LOOK IT UP. There are phonetic glossaries out there, even on the intarwebz.