I went with 'more complicated than that', because although I think he's totally lying, I daresay what he's had have been variations on the theme (love and family and security) rather than the exact same dream over and over.
The first time I saw DALDoM, I didn't question his statement--not because I thought he'd never had fantasies about a "settled" life but for two reasons: 1. I didn't think he'd really fantasized that much about Lisa and Ben in that family life (or even Lisa as a monogamous relationship); 2. I thought that it was because he was so aware that Sam was with him, that his subconscious was bringing up dreams he might not have dreamed on his own. In other words, he was so worried about thing Sam might see that his brain started imagining exactly those things that he thought might embarrass him.
Hmm, yes. I don't think it would be so much Lisa and Ben specifically he'd dream about as the kind of life they represent - meeting them brought him up sharp against the fact that he is simply never going to have that kind of life, that kind of stable, happy home life. He could have been Ben's father, very easily, but wasn't - meeting them both opened and closed the door on a specific possibilty, that of leaving something of himself behind in the world when he is gone, as well as of having a family of his own to hold on to for the time he has left.
Most of all, back when he knew Lisa, she was obviously exactly the kind of party girl he usually hooks up with, the kind that's only too happy to indulge in a casual fling, knowing she will never see him again. But she obviously made enough of an impression on him that he remembered her with great fondness almost nine years later. So to meet up with her again and see how much her life has moved forward, while his is not only still stuck in pretty much the same place but about to end - about to end without ever having achieved what Lisa has in terms of a family of her own. Well, I can see where that would make a profound impression on him, especially in the frame of mind we know him to be in as season 3 plays out and he faces his fate.
We already know from Route 666 and WIAWSNB that a stable monogomous relationship is his ideal, but that his circumstances make it impossible, which is why he sticks to the tomcat routine. The specific scenario that Sam sees? May or may not be something he has dreamed before. But with his date with the hellhounds getting ever closer, and Lisa and Ben very fresh in his memory as a representation of the family he will never have, I think his subconscious would very much be using them to torment him in his sleep as just another thing to regret about his life - the what could have been.
Yup, and that all makes perfect sense. Like I said, I don't doubt that he has had dreams about family and stability and being loved in that sense--as you say, WIAWSNB is a prime example of what his subconscious keeps buried--and that Lisa was the most recent candidate for his brain to work with.
I dunno, I guess just the first time I saw it, the line reading sounded to me more like, "Whoa, that's weird" than "Uh...very embarrassed. Must cover up."
But I think it's a little bit of both. So as you say: More Complicated than Just Plain Lying. But not telling the absolute truth, either.
Deanology. Like psychology but way more fun. Whee!
I debated between "He's lying" and "More complicated than that," but I chose "More complicated" because it seemed more accurate. He's definitely lying, but I'm sure there's been different variations of the same dream. He's no doubt dreamed of settling down and having a family, but the dreams may not have always included Lisa. He probably had the same sort of dream when he was with Cassie, too. The idea is probably the same in all the dreams, it's just the details that change.
Yes, I think I basically agree with you. That is, I think he has to have had some dreams about a settled life, but I don't think he's necessarily had that dream (certainly not in a recurring way).
When I saw DALDoM the first time, I didn't even really question his assertion. I didn't think he'd spent much conscious dreaming about Lisa in particular, or even Ben, nor did I think he was really all that angst-ridden about the family-fantasies at all. But more significantly, I think that what prompted that particular scene was his self-consciousness at having Sam there. He was so worried about what Sam might see that his subconscious started conjuring up things that he wouldn't want Sam to see.
I completely get why it's easy to think he's covering up (poorly) the fact that he's had this fantasy many times.
But I actually think the reason he's having it in front of Sam is that he got himself all worked up about what Sam might see because he's there. Like trying not to think of a white elephant.
I do agree that he has to have had some fantasies about a settled, normal life. But I don't necessarily think that the idyllic picture, particularly with Lisa and Ben in the wings, is something that he's conscious he's dreamed before. I think it's more a case that because he was worried he might have some embarrassing, girly romantic fantasy...Boom, coming right up.
I mean, he'd clearly also never had the "dream" in which he talks to his demon self. He'd never had the opportunity to face his contradictory feelings about his father.
So while I think that "Oh, he's totally lying" is an easy way to read it, I also think it's a valid choice to say that he really *hasn't* dreamed that dream - recurring, consciously, lucidly - and that it's partly there as a consequence of his own insecurity at being accompanied by Sam.
Nothing wrong with flying solo! I guess I like to think it's true because of what John said right (before he DFOd) about wanting Dean to have a home. I think that maybe Dean wants him for itself, but as you pointed out, it's totally up for interpretation.
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I so totally read that as "Spammity Sam".
Clearly, I am obsessed. ;->
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The first time I saw DALDoM, I didn't question his statement--not because I thought he'd never had fantasies about a "settled" life but for two reasons: 1. I didn't think he'd really fantasized that much about Lisa and Ben in that family life (or even Lisa as a monogamous relationship); 2. I thought that it was because he was so aware that Sam was with him, that his subconscious was bringing up dreams he might not have dreamed on his own. In other words, he was so worried about thing Sam might see that his brain started imagining exactly those things that he thought might embarrass him.
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Most of all, back when he knew Lisa, she was obviously exactly the kind of party girl he usually hooks up with, the kind that's only too happy to indulge in a casual fling, knowing she will never see him again. But she obviously made enough of an impression on him that he remembered her with great fondness almost nine years later. So to meet up with her again and see how much her life has moved forward, while his is not only still stuck in pretty much the same place but about to end - about to end without ever having achieved what Lisa has in terms of a family of her own. Well, I can see where that would make a profound impression on him, especially in the frame of mind we know him to be in as season 3 plays out and he faces his fate.
We already know from Route 666 and WIAWSNB that a stable monogomous relationship is his ideal, but that his circumstances make it impossible, which is why he sticks to the tomcat routine. The specific scenario that Sam sees? May or may not be something he has dreamed before. But with his date with the hellhounds getting ever closer, and Lisa and Ben very fresh in his memory as a representation of the family he will never have, I think his subconscious would very much be using them to torment him in his sleep as just another thing to regret about his life - the what could have been.
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I dunno, I guess just the first time I saw it, the line reading sounded to me more like, "Whoa, that's weird" than "Uh...very embarrassed. Must cover up."
But I think it's a little bit of both. So as you say: More Complicated than Just Plain Lying. But not telling the absolute truth, either.
Deanology. Like psychology but way more fun. Whee!
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When I saw DALDoM the first time, I didn't even really question his assertion. I didn't think he'd spent much conscious dreaming about Lisa in particular, or even Ben, nor did I think he was really all that angst-ridden about the family-fantasies at all. But more significantly, I think that what prompted that particular scene was his self-consciousness at having Sam there. He was so worried about what Sam might see that his subconscious started conjuring up things that he wouldn't want Sam to see.
Like trying not to think of a white elephant.
But clearly, I'm in the minority.
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I completely get why it's easy to think he's covering up (poorly) the fact that he's had this fantasy many times.
But I actually think the reason he's having it in front of Sam is that he got himself all worked up about what Sam might see because he's there. Like trying not to think of a white elephant.
I do agree that he has to have had some fantasies about a settled, normal life. But I don't necessarily think that the idyllic picture, particularly with Lisa and Ben in the wings, is something that he's conscious he's dreamed before. I think it's more a case that because he was worried he might have some embarrassing, girly romantic fantasy...Boom, coming right up.
I mean, he'd clearly also never had the "dream" in which he talks to his demon self. He'd never had the opportunity to face his contradictory feelings about his father.
So while I think that "Oh, he's totally lying" is an easy way to read it, I also think it's a valid choice to say that he really *hasn't* dreamed that dream - recurring, consciously, lucidly - and that it's partly there as a consequence of his own insecurity at being accompanied by Sam.
But I'm obviously the only one who thinks so.
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